Francesco Vantaggio comes from Rome and Alessio Carbone from Venice. They are two Italian dancers of the Paris Opera.
They speak to Yannis Achyropoulos for the sake of theCommonSense; about their path and career, about what has changed in recent years on the big ballet stages of the world, about how political correctness has imposed new rules. For the famous tolerance of diversity.
Among other things, they discuss artistic expression and how dancers deal with the fact of their short careers, what it means to retire at the age of 42. For what remains of all this journey and experience...
The interview took place on New Year's Eve in Paris, at the Hôtel de Castille.
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How a young Italian dancer from Rome or Venice can find himself at the Paris Opera, what motivates him?
AC: The Paris Opera is the dream of dancers all over the world, it is still considered the best troupe in the world along with the Bolshoi in Moscow and the Mariinsky troupe in St. Petersburg. With a history of 350 years, which reaches back to the "Sun King" Louis XIV.
There are of course other important troupes such as that of Milan's La Scala, London's Royal Ballet or New York's Metropolitan. But two are the most important schools, French and Russian. And then Italian, of course. The Americans on the other hand have less than a century of history in the field of ballet, just like the English, they do not have a long tradition and history in dance.
Were there always exchanges and interactions between the Russian and French schools, or did this begin in the time of Marius Petipa?
AC: There was always a strong interaction, many French choreographers like Petipa went to Russia where there was a very fertile ground, and there was also an interaction between the Italian and French Schools. Some of the most important étoile dancers of the Paris Opera Ballet in the 19th century, such as Maria Taglioni and Caretta Grizi, were Italian. Over time this tradition weakened.
Russian ballet even today thanks to the Baganova "school", which has a unique, precise and specialized method, with teachers and coaches who pass on their knowledge from one generation to another, trains and produces dancers of a very high level every year. I would say that in recent years in the classical repertoire (Swan Lake, Don Quixote, Bayandre) the two great Russian ballets have overtaken the one in Paris, which is more open and innovative, more interested in modern and contemporary repertoire; the Russians are engaged mostly with the classical repertoire.
When you came to the Paris Opera Ballet you were the only Italians as you told me. Were there other nationalities?
AC: No, there weren't any, we were the only Italian dancers. There was also an Italian girl who of course was a graduate of the ballet school of the Paris Opera. Then another Italian dancer came. We were entered through external competition, which was not often the case at the time.
How exactly is it done? Are there relationships between the various ballet schools around the world?
AC: At that time a Maitre de ballet of the Paris Opera had come to the Milan staircase to rehearse a production of a Nureyev ballet, he informed us that this year there were not many candidates from the Paris Opera School for the troupe and that for the first time it would also accept candidates from other countries. That's how we got the chance.
The Paris Opera was quite closed to dancers from other countries and schools.
F.V.: Until then there was a rule that dancers who did not come from the ballet school of the Paris Opera could not exceed 10%. The question was homogeneity. Same school, same height, same features, same color...
It is also the reason why, in my opinion, the Russians excel. They maintain a strict homogeneity.
Now things have changed.
The point is diversity, at least in the West.
And in your opinion, what would be more interesting… homogeneity or diversity?
AC: If I chose diversity, since nowadays this is the trend, I would do so on the condition that some choreographies would change, which are based on the logic of homogeneity that has prevailed until today.
F.V.: Let's take a characteristic scene of the swan lake where 32 swans, white, of the same height and features, perform Nureyev's well-known choreography.
Let's imagine an ensemble based on diversity in terms of height, color and features. The visual effect will be completely different.
AC: Some years ago the philosophy of the Paris Opera was... "We take the best graduates of our own ballet school". Gradually this changed and became... "We take the best from ballet schools all over the world".
For a few years now the philosophy has been... "We must have dancers from all over the world"
F.V.: Today there is a "must" to have a representation of large communities. It is not possible for example not to have some Chinese or Indians in major international dance, music or whatever else.
I would like to dwell on this point for a moment. There is a different philosophy and approach as you tell me. In practice, what has changed in recent years?
AC: The evolution of aesthetic taste and the philosophy of political correctness impose changes in attitudes, attitudes and habits.
For example, years ago, if there was a colored dancer in the tableau of 32 white swans in Act Three of the ballet, she would be made up to look white. Now it is forbidden, it would create a scandal.
Years ago when we danced the Bayadere we were made up like Indians, now it is forbidden; we wear the Indian costumes but we are not made up. If we went to Russia we could do make-up because the Russians have a completely different approach to it, if we played it in London or New York we couldn't... it would create a scandal.
In Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker, some of Nureyev's choreographies for example in the Chinese dance scene are now considered by Chinese communities as derogatory, demeaning, caricatures of the Chinese.
Some make-up also today would no longer be allowed by the social mores of the time and the various countries, they would be considered racist. Some of the very classic Nutcracker choreography has already been revised. Something that a few decades ago was considered completely normal today could very easily be characterized as racist. Nureyev is known to have had an approach that today could be described as racist or demeaning to some. There is a well-known story of a dancer in the Paris Opera troupe who, while he was perhaps the best at the time when Nureyev was director, was forced to leave because Nureyev did not give him the position and roles he objectively deserved, and this because of its color.
Most artistic directors of big companies don't really know how to react; it's often like walking on eggs, the slightest thing can create a scandal. We are in a transitional stage, in the heart of change, with very delicate balances on a slippery road. Surely the landscape will clear up in a few years.
When do these changes date back? Is there a specific milestone?
AC: Yes there is. Everything changed radically and with great speed after the death of George Floyd in the USA. The Black Lives Matter movement played a very important role in this change. There was, of course, a tendency in this direction which had already begun in Great Britain. A very important role was played by the recent best-selling book "Final bow for yellowface" by New York-based Chinese dancer Phil Chan.
F.V.: It was the last straw. Things that had always been allowed were suddenly automatically cut off.
We, as Italians, had at times felt a subservient, "innocent" racism; many jokes and jokes against us in relation to our origin, characterizations and cosmetic epithets in rehearsals and in the dressing rooms; most of the time, of course, it was painless... they did not bother us; but sometimes they exceeded the limits.
All of that was cut off at once. Attitudes have changed radically, everyone is paying much more attention.
Now that you had achieved your goal and were permanent members of the troupe, what did you enjoy the most? Artistic fulfillment, recognition, professional calm and creation? Personal satisfaction in the thought that you were part of the most important classical dance troupe in the world?
AC: (Laughing) The dancers…
F.V.: (Laughing) And their sisters... And their mothers...
AC: The fact that we would stop the constant auditions and that we could now participate in high-demand projects, in perfect conditions, without the stress of making a living was very important.
We devoted ourselves completely to our art, with peace of mind.
F.V.: For us who came to Paris in 1997-98, the economic part also made an impression on us. Because of the French franc's relationship to the Italian lire, we had double the earnings of Italy; we felt like royalty.
We were dancing in the most important troupe in the world, we were very young, we made the dream come true and at the same time we were making a lot of money. We also had many privileges, facilities for example to find a house which is so difficult in Paris.
During your career were there times when you felt artistically trapped in a "golden cage"? Permanence and artistic creation are sometimes incompatible concepts…
F.V.: Yes that's how it is. But in the contract it was foreseen and given the possibility that every five years we could take a year off and do whatever we want. To participate in other troupes in other countries, to look for new artistic experiences. When I was 30 years old I left for 6 months and worked with troupes in Florence.
AC: They know this at the Paris Opera, that artists need to try new experiences, that's why they give this opportunity. I had left for a year and was collaborating with troupes in Copenhagen and Rome.
What is the daily schedule of an opera dancer?
F.V.: Morning and afternoon rehearsals daily. About 6-7 hours of dance and gymnastics with a military style discipline.
Of course, we adjust the program in relation to whether or not we have a performance in the evening.
Your career is too short, you are bound to stop at 42. What is the best moment in terms of age and how do you live with the fact that this incredible experience stops while you are still very young?
F.V.: The best age is around 30 to 35. After 35 there is an obvious difference. Towards the end of the career, on the one hand we enjoy each performance more, while at the same time the physical fatigue is greater and more intense.
I danced Swan Lake for the last time at 41. It was tiring but it was the one I enjoyed the most in my career.
AC: The best age for me is 30.
When we stop our careers, a huge void is created. But from a physical point of view it is a relief. It is difficult to dance very demanding works after 40.
Of course we are thinking about it and trying to prepare.
But the adrenaline at the time of the performance cannot be replaced by anything else, unfortunately. Our scene is missing and it's dramatic. Many dancers live it very badly. Alcoholism, depression and obesity are the three "friends" of former dancers...
How does a dancer who retires at 42 continue his life? What career opportunities are there? What was your choice?
F.V.: A large portion deals with education. I now teach dance classes at the opera house in Rome. I really like it for two main reasons. First because I feel a great satisfaction when I teach - I come from a family of dancers, my mother has run a dance school for 40 years - and also because I need to be in a theater, to walk on stage, to be in classrooms , rehearsing, touching the bars.
AC: Many are engaged in teaching dance, others in choreography, others become maître de ballet, coaches, etc.
I am very interested in the organizational side. I am aiming for a staff position in a major opera house. I had an offer to take over as artistic director at an opera house in a German city. For purely family reasons I did not accept her. I live in Venice with my wife and three children, I participate in various évents, I travel, scouting the ground for my future activities.
What remains after a 23-year career at the Paris Opera?
Alessio-Francesco:
An incredible personal and professional experience.
The love and admiration of the public.
Intense artistic emotions.
Meetings and collaborations with creators, choreographers, dancers, teachers from all over the world who presented their work at the Paris Opera.
It was a great privilege that the most important and pioneering artists of the whole world wanted to present their work in Paris.
So we knew what was going on in the rest of the world, it all came to us, to our house.
Tours - with impeccable conditions - all over the world, in cities where there were important theaters.
And of course a wonderful Carte de visite for the sequel.
Thank you very much.
Alessio-Francesco:
U.S. too.